Name: From midterms to markets: The questions clients will ask next
Uploaded: 2026-11-06T19:48:21.380Z
Duration: 36 min 40 s
Description: From midterms to markets: The questions clients will ask next

Transcript for "From midterms to markets: The questions clients will ask next": Good afternoon. Good morning, everyone. Thank you for dialing in today for this webinar and discussion around midterm outcomes. I'm Brian Griggs, head of portfolio strategy group at Nuveen, LLC, and we are coming out of a very contentious election season. The tension is now focused shifting focus from counting votes to considering the economic policy and market implications as we saw yesterday of the election. Pleased to have an esteemed panel of colleagues here to help us break down all the key variables to consider. James Bergeron, advisor education from Nuveen, here to join us, Margot Kleinman, head of municipal research from Nuveen, and Jim Johnson, head of government relations for Tiaa and Nuveen. Let's get started with a broad discussion on the results that we saw this week. Jim Johnson, let's start with you. What are some of the key points you would make about the results and they... How they might impact investors going forward? Yeah. Appreciate it. So so let's start, just just a quick rundown on the high level results. Right? So so the house, current standing is two fifty fifth... Two fifty two to one fifty five with 28 outstanding. So that's a net pickup of 40. The senate is fifty four forty four with two outstanding seats. So that's a an enormous gain of a a d plus seven and potentially d plus nine. At the gubernatorial level, you had a d plus four including in the state of Texas, Ohio, Georgia, and Iowa all went blue. You went from 23, trifectas, or you went two twenty three trifectas for Democrats, up from 18, and conversely, from, 23 down to 18 on the Republican side. Shoot. That's a it's a big number all the way around. So maybe at the best place to start is at the federal level with just sort of what we're expecting. Right? So so there's some obvious things. I would say, obvious thing number one is a heavy dose of oversight. And within that oversight conversation, I would say that there's there's a couple of buckets. I I would first say it's all things Trump. So the Trump administration, the Trump family, the Trump business dealings, and corporate business dealings with Trump. I would say oversight of corporations. And then the last thing I would mention too, which I think will be ongoing for some time is the Epstein conversation. I I suspect that there'll be far less legislation, but that being said, we'll quickly careen into some some big ticket macro issues, particularly around, a discussion of the debt ceiling given the statutory deadline. And I also would expect a heavier, regulatory agenda from Trump. So so, you know, we've seen this, play out previously with with other administrations as they go through the midterms. They they either lose the house and or the senate legislation starts to trickle, but the regulation, starts to really ramp up. Couple of other things that I would mention, you you have some material changes atop the leadership post. So with senate banking, you have, likely Elizabeth Warren, and she has a pretty fulsome agenda. I think she would be heavy to look at, private equity, which she's often referred to as a scam. And, and then I I also think that the other items high on her to do list would be consumer banking priorities, figure out... Figuring out how to deal with the Trump administration with respect to the CFPB and the like, and also swipe fees and credit cards. The third place I would look is is crypto there. I I also wanna mention just a couple less obvious, items, but I think that they're really important. With respect to debts and deficits, I mean, they are massive and yawning in every direction. It just seems unlikely to me that there's any real political will to move in advance of the twenty twenty eight elections. But one thing I would call out, one thing that we look at, quite a bit is the Social Security Trust Fund, which has to be managed before the 2032, time frame in order to avoid a a a 20% decline for for everybody, across the board. So so it's something that this next president and this presidential cycle, every candidate's gonna have a microphone in their face, and they're gonna have to give an answer to that question. Wanted to call out a couple of other things and then then I'll I'll pass it back to you. But wanted to mention, AI because I think that that was a seminal event or a seminal conversation throughout the elections, and I think it'll continue moving forward. So so broadly defined, we're probably looking at at sort of three buckets of of legislative items at the federal level, and we could also talk about the state level. But at the federal level, there were hundreds of bills passed... I mean, filed this congress, and I think we'll play up on those themes. The three the three buckets I would mention would be energy and environmental concerns, cyber and defense, and then really guardrails around the frontier models themselves. So so there's no doubt that we're going to see sort of a slowing, of of some of the AI conversation, both at the federal level and at the state level. And and we'll see some of that tension that exists between sort of the Trump administration saying let's move as fast as we can and the state and local level that is saying we're gonna slow down the process of, of, and regulate here, particularly as as it relates to data centers. There were at least 41 ballot initiatives, on the ballots at the state and local level, and they predominantly reigned in 10 states. All of them were essentially saying, let's let's slow down this process. And so that's why I think fundamentally we'll start to see a slow a slowdown in terms of, data center build outs and and sort of the proliferation of this AI conversation. There's two other things that I just wanted to mention at the onset, at the state and local level. One was a a ballot initiative in Florida, the other in California. In California, we had a, a conversation around the billionaires tax, and as it stands right now, they're they're currently, that that that that measure is not likely to pass. With respect... But but there there again, I don't think that's the last that we're gonna see of that issue. And then with respect to the state of Florida, we saw a ballot initiative around, property taxes. And in particular, a a material decrease in state property taxes. And so that's an area where I think we'll be careful to watch sort of the build out, and I know Margot will probably have some thoughts and feelings about this one, the build out, not just in the state of Florida, but then where does it go from here, right? And so you have this tension, sort of where I talked about it at the federal level where you have these yawning debts and deficits, you have a need for additional revenue, and then you have, you know, obviously this one's a state level, not a federal level initiative, but at the state level you see a lot of the same problems and turns out that people really don't love paying property tax. And so, as as this moves forward, we'll have to watch this one closely. But Brian, I'll kick it back to you, for any questions. Thank thank you, Jim. A lot to chew on there. And, Margot, I'm sure you could go a lot of different ways with with Jim's comments. But given that the uncertainty around the AI build out and data centers felt very. acute yesterday in the equity market. Why don't we start there? From your seat as head of municipal research, what is your view on whether any election results that happened this week might affect the data center build out, on a go forward basis. Yeah. Thanks, Brian. I, you know, I think data centers are a really interesting example of where the election results intersect with the muni market. And one of the clearest messages from voters was that there is growing resistance to data center development at the state and local level. So as James said, there were more than 40 data center date... Data center related measures on ballots across 13 states, and about half sought to prohibit or restrict development. And, you know, I think that's really important because we see this backlash against data centers. It's really because of the growing recognition that while these projects can bring substantial investment and expand the local tax base, there are also real costs associated with them, particularly around power, water, infrastructure, and tax incentives. And so more data center regulation does have implications for municipal investors in a couple of ways. So first, there's the impact on tax back credits like local government. So if new restrictions slow development, communities that were counting on data centers to produce significant new tax based growth may not see that growth materialize as quickly as expected. And then second, there's the impact on utility credits. So large data center loads can require costly investments in power generation, transmission, and water infrastructure, and those investments can increase leverage and put pressure on rates for existing customers. And that's why you really saw this big backlash. And so if projected demand doesn't materialize, utilities could be left with excess capacity and stranded assets. So that's why we're seeing public power systems use tools such as long term contracts, capacity payments, and exit fees to protect existing customers. I would say that the political and regulatory resistance to data center development doesn't mean that the underlying demand for AI infrastructure is going away by any means or that we won't see data center development. I think it really means that state and local governments are... They're just gonna be more responsible and more thoughtful going forward about new development, and it could make new projects slower, more expensive, and more difficult to locate. And for us, muni bond investors, it really, reinforces for us the importance of looking issuer by issuer at three things. One is how much anticipated tax based growth has already been incorporated into forecast. Two, how much infrastructure investment is required. And three, who bears the cost if the projected demand doesn't materialize? I think, ultimately, the implications are likely to be localized, very issuer specific, as always requiring careful research to really identify where the opportunities and risks are. Thank you, Margot. Jim Johnson, back to you for a minute. There's a lot to consider here from a policy uncertainty standpoint, but if you could take all of this and tie it to some investment related implications to think about coming out of the election, what would you focus on there? It's a good question. I I I mean, I I think, there... There's there's a sort of a lot to digest. Right? Because Mark... Margot mentioned the investment thesis on the municipal side, particularly with respect to AI. But I also think that we can't sort of whistle past, the human element of the the the sort of ballot initiatives that went on. The the frustrations that you see here are mostly around, are are mostly around concerns about jobs. Right? So so, yeah, there's climate, there's energy, there's cyber, but I think that the American public has not sort of been been read into all of the upside of AI. And a lot of what they're seeing is just a lot of the downside. So so from my perspective, I actually think that that's that's... It could be a a net positive for the AI trade. If if you see, you know, the sustained, sell off continue, I think that that could be a problem. But if the market essentially digested and said, okay. This is gonna be a much slower burn, which which actually may end up being better, long term, then then then that's for the good. But you do sort of need a spokesperson, that then comes up and says, this is why the AI trade is is good for you and good from a consumer perspective. I I also think that there's gonna be a a large scale reset, in in areas like crypto, and some of the other excesses that we've seen. So so that... So that'll play out. But but, the the the sort of third leg to the stool on all of this is the the tension at the macro level between, sort of the federal government on the one hand in terms of the federal fisc and between the fed on the other hand that's essentially trying to rein in the excesses. Right? So right now, everybody has essentially said, we'd love to have the government come in and do more, spend more, etcetera. And the Fed is saying, well, we have this inflation problem that we gotta make sure we keep sorted, which is going to to to create some some some near term volatility there. So didn't really answer your question perfectly, Brian Griggs, in terms of, you know, the immediate... Like, what what are the key trades? But I think that those are many of the key themes that I think we should probably focus on. I mean, certainly, there are some tensions in multiple levels. Like, to your point, the, benefits of AI communicating those. And to your point, this potentially has a chance to kind of prolong the the proverbial wall of worry. If we're building slower towards an AI future, it could mean mean more sustainability to the uptrend. So thank you for those thoughts. And, but, hey, Brian Griggs, one last thing too. Just just generally divided government. You know, generally divided government has been good for the markets, and so, you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't discount that either, right, that neither side is gonna perfectly get what they want. And so I think on the one hand, if you can get past the the noise and the fury that we're gonna see because, you know, it's funny, you could have called this the the twenty twenty six election readout or the early indications on where we're going in 2028. Right? Because, obviously, the twenty twenty eight presidential is underway right now, and so you're gonna have a relitigation on a number of these big ticket items. But I think underneath that, the notion that you're going to have a little bit more calming because you don't have one party rule is probably not an unhealthy thing for the markets in that regard. I would agree. It's... It it's a little bit harder to use that talking point yesterday, but I do agree with you, Jim. Historically speaking, markets, they tend to act favorably with divided government. Now there are many things we're discussing discussing right now that are also gonna affect the way that financial advisers work with their clients, particularly towards year end. James Bergeron, I'd love to pull you into the conversation. If you could please highlight some of the key points around tax management and other planning needs to remind advisers who might be on the call today. Where would you point our attention to? Yeah. Thanks, Brian. And I... And I'll extend from what Jim Johnson just said. And that when it comes to government, divided government, to some degree, offers us some things that we can, to some degree, depend on. And from an individual planning standpoint, conversations governed around taxes, to some degree, change if we know that there's a change in our future. Well, it's unlikely we're gonna see any major individual tax changes and policy and structures over the course of the next two years. We will start to see some indications as to what's on the table. For instance, things like estate tax is probably on the table. But when it comes to individual planning, anytime there is an election, we come out of it wondering what are the thoughts? What are the things that we should be doing with clients directly? Well, for this year end in planning conversations, there are a few that I think are worth revisiting if you've already talked about them or maybe queuing up with clients. And let's start with this obvious, and that's do a bit of that MAGI projection. We should have a pretty good idea now where clients are likely gonna be at at year end when it comes to their income. And that's important for a few different things. I'll start with, for instance, the SALT deduction. If your clients reside in one of those 36, 37 states now that have a state level income tax, that deduction on their federal return does get limited. Right now, the deduction is capped at $40,400 this year, but as income levels rise across 500,000 at the, household level, that deduction gets reduced. Maybe put differently to your clients. Their effective tax rate, if that income hovers between 5 and $600,000, is actually 45.5%, Not the top 37 that we hear about on ordinary income taxes, but 45.5%. Managing around either side of that threshold if the clients are on the lower end, maybe helping to think about ways to defer additional income. On the upper end of that range, perhaps if we're already gonna be exposed to that reduction, we think about ways of maybe accelerating some income. But it starts with doing a bit of that MAGI projection. Where are we gonna be at from an income standpoint? That will also, as an adviser, give you a sense of where that client might reside in their current tax bracket. And if there's headroom between where they're at in that bracket and the next higher ordinary income tax bracket, That's a great number to model additional Roth conversions, especially if that client is maybe in that golden window between retiring from their career and starting Social Security distributions. That golden window, a great opportunity for Roth conversions. And at least as a start point, you can start by modeling it with that headroom that they have. And the main reason, psychologically, they're not pushing them into a higher tax bracket even though this conversion is going to increase income. So thinking about that MAGI perspective, that in turn gives us opportunities to maybe defer or avoid taxes. We wanna offset taxes as well. Next idea that I would bring up, certainly with clients that are charitable inclined, is turning that habit of making year end charitable gifts maybe into a structure. Think of it this way. If I do a Roth conversion, as a part of that conversion, I'm increasing income, potentially increasing my income tax cost. Well, utilizing maybe a structured charitable giving program, maybe bunching a few years worth of deductions can offset that higher conversion cost or that cost of converting those dollars from an IRA to a Roth IRA. Great opportunity to reduce that conversion cost and at the same time, maybe avoid some other potential stealth taxes. For instance, for our charitable deductions, for itemizing, starting this year, those deductions are subject to a new 0.5% floor. So we're losing some of that deduction each year. If we do it ratably over the course of three years, every three years, we're losing percentage of those deductions, those charitable deductions. Bunching it into this year strategically makes more sense. Can use that to offset my Roth conversion costs. As a part of that, that in turn starts to build the strategy to take advantage of the rates where they're at right now. Don't necessarily know where they're gonna end up, but if you're placing chips, you might place them in one direction, higher or lower. I'll just give you this to think about. Our income tax rates are amongst the lowest that we have seen in history. And so if you're placing those chips somewhere, I'll let you decide. But we might wanna think about at least helping our clients in turn consider locking in that discount. If rates do go higher at some point to cover off all of these other issues on a macro level basis, if rates go higher, locking them in now, things like Roth conversions makes absolute sense. Final piece that I'll talk about, and then I'll turn it back over to you, Brian. But when we think about the opportunity at year end, oftentimes, we are thinking about gifting. We just talked about charitable gifting. But even intrafamily gifts, take advantage of that opportunity that annual gift tax exclusions provide. We can give certain amounts of wealth, removing it from our state for estate tax purposes and pass that down the generational line. This year, that annual gift number is 19,038 thousand between a married couple. And as planners, we always like to think about how we can maybe further leverage that perfect opportunity for families that have kids, even younger kids, maybe starting to think about funding that 05/29 plan, creating that family educational endowment using those annual exclusion gifts. And there are some opportunities that we get as a part of that to maybe even superfund those accounts. They're really quite generous in terms of the benefits they provide and really flexible. It's great opportunity. Those are the conversations that we absolutely should be having with clients as we move into year end. So with that, Brian, I'll turn it back to you. There's a lot of additional thoughts to cover. Thank you, Jim. A bit of a ominous statement baked in the middle there about the potential future direction of tax rates. But as always, Jim, I appreciate your insight given the exciting part of the financial adviser role is often discussing markets and building portfolios. But to your point, the financial planning side, the tax management, the tax deferral, those are some of the items that can really move the needle for clients over the long run. So thank you for those reminders. Margot, in addition to the house and senate races, and you mentioned this a little bit, there were a number of individual ballot measures on different state ballots and some key governor elections that saw some pretty surprising outcomes. If we take it to the state level, what are some of the issues you're watching in individual states that make up a meaningful portion of the muni market? Yeah. Absolutely. So just taking a step back for a moment, Brian Griggs. So we don't view the election results as fundamentally changing the muni credit story, so I just wanna make sure everyone really understands that piece of it. We believe muni fundamentals remain strong. So when we're looking at tax collections, they're up more than 5% year over year. Reserve levels on state balance sheets are near historic highs. But what we are, you know, noticing here is that elections can certainly change the tax and policy landscape, and that's where our research really matters. So I'd like to focus on three key key areas that our analysts are following right now. So one is Medicaid and federal funding, two, state tax policies, and then three, of course, the munitax exemption, which always comes up as a concern whenever there's, a change in in government, leadership. So regarding Medicaid, our sources in Washington expect health care to be one of the Democrats' highest priorities when the new congress begins in January. And so among the proposals we could see are efforts to claw back some of the roughly 900,000,000,000 of Medicaid cuts that were passed as part of the o triple b a. We could see, increases in NIH funding, expansion of Medicaid dental and vision benefits, and a rollback of the ACA cuts. So, certainly, we're not saying that all of those things will pass, but health care is likely to become a really important part of the negotiating process next year, and some changes could ultimately get through. And so if federal support for Medicaid does decline as outlined in the O triple b a, states have to decide whether to replace that funding with their own resources, reduce benefits, or allow some of that pressure to really fall to health care providers like hospitals that issue bonds in the muni market. So we're watching really closely how these negotiations develop and how individual states, respond to changes in federal support. I'll say Texas is particularly interesting. So the change in political control there could open a path toward Medicaid expansion in that state. So I think it's important to say, you know, even as sort of... As we talk about federal policy, you know, in terms of which direction that will go, state level election results really could significantly affect how those policies ultimately flow through and impact municipal credits. The second area I wanna talk about is state tax policy. So, this is something we've been watching really closely. We've published on this topic quite a bit. Voters across several states voted on measures related to property tax and income tax reform like Jim Johnson had mentioned earlier. So these included initiatives like increasing property tax exemptions, capping property tax increases, and I think many of you know that, you know, municipal bonds, there's many of them that are backed by property taxes, so this is something that we're looking at very closely. And some other ballot measures were related to income tax, so imposing or extending higher income taxes on high earners in states like Colorado and California. So higher income taxes could mean more demand for muni bonds, of course, and it could also mean additional revenues flowing into state coffers, but it can also increase a state's reliance on a relatively small and potentially more volatile group of tax, group of taxpayers. And so that's really important as we look here, at states that issue in the muni market that are already highly dependent on personal income taxes in California, of course, comes to mind. But the ballot initiative, I'd say, with the clearest direct credit implications for us was in Florida. So in Florida, voters approved amendment three with roughly 62% of the vote, which was just above the 60% threshold required for passage. And this represents a really big change in the way that Florida cities and counties will finance themselves. It increases the homestead exemption on non school property taxes from $50,000 today to $250,000 in 2028, and it also reduces the annual amount of growth in nonhomestead property taxes from 10% to 5%. So the estimates that we're seeing suggest that county revenue losses statewide could reach between 4.5 and 8,000,000,000 annually by fiscal twenty eight, twenty nine, which is really meaningful. And so when we're looking at muni bonds, I think there's two things to really keep in mind. One is that school districts aren't affected, and the second is that existing general obligation debt remains legally protected because governments retain unlimited millage for debt service. So we're not concerned here that Florida municipalities aren't going to be paying their bonds back, but we're... What we're looking at is sort of the operating flexibility and what this really means for cities and counties that will now have to respond to these lower property tax revenues through some combination of spending reductions, drawing on reserves, or trying to raise revenues elsewhere. And the other point I just wanna mention is that this won't impact every Florida municipality equally, and so communities with more diverse commercial and industrial tax bases and higher property value should be better positioned while smaller communities with more heavily residential tax basis, particularly those with lower home values, could experience greater pressure. So one example is Port... Port Saint Lucie, which is, a city that has a high concentration of residential property. So we are projecting that they will experience a 39% decline in their taxable valuation due to this change, which will be a 19% hit to their general fund budget. On the other hand, if you look at a a city like Miami where there's higher residential values and a more diversified tax base, we're seeing that the impact will only be about a taxable decline of 6% or roughly a 3% general fund revenue loss. So you can see that... I think our research is really important here because it's not an equal impact on all of these different municipalities and all of these different issuers into the muni market. It's really looking at issuer by issuer and understanding the different dynamics. So I'll just, I'll leave it there. Thank you, Margot. I think Florida is always a great example given even if you don't live in the Sunshine State. More often than not, Florida is a destination for retirees from the state you live in. So I think tax policy and changes are always instrumental to understand not just for Florida residents and for Florida muni bond holders, but really as a nation overall. So appreciate that insight. Definitely. Yeah. Definitely. And you know what, Brian? I just realized that I didn't touch on the muni tax exemption, so I'll sort of touch on that really. quickly. In our view, you know, again, muni investors always worry about after an election whether there's gonna be a change to the federal tax treatment of muni bonds. I think given the political configuration coming out of this election, major changes to federal tax laws appear unlikely. So at this point, we're not really viewing a fundamental change in the muni tax structure as likely at this time, but, of course, it's always something that we're monitoring. Sure. Everyone's happy to hear that. Thank you, Margot. Now I'll end with this. This is a question for each of our panelists. Everyone on this webinar at this point in the week has heard some take on what the election means through either watching CNN or Fox News, to social media, to their favorite AI chat. Everyone has an opinion on what this means. Sometimes those opinions are somewhat dramatic to get attention, to get focused, but I wanna hear from our three experts in your realm, in your ex... In your area of expertise where you're kind of focused every single day. If you could describe briefly what's the single most important takeaway from this midterm result, where would you leave everyone today, with those thoughts? And we'll start with you, Jim Johnson. Yeah. Well... And as the lobbyist on the call, as soon as you said one takeaway, I immediately divided my head into two. And so, you know, one's a quick quib. The the quick quib is, you know, the old adage, I think is the correct adage, which is, governing is hard. And so it'll be curious to see how the Democrats with this new found massive coalition govern. Because you have people like El Saied, which everybody had talked about in Michigan on the one hand, but you have Annie Andrews, a new... A newly minted, Democrat coming in from South Carolina. And and how the... Those two states diverge and how are they gonna manage these things together, I I think that that'll be a very important sort of interesting takeaway. The the other thing is, the the conversation we started with on a lot of ways, I think is indicative of the entire sort of macroeconomic story, which is where does the AI trade go? Because if you think about AI, it covers so much of the of the economic swath that we're talking about. Everything from from energy needs to, you know, the future of jobs and the like. And so so it's one of those areas where I think you you can kind of... As that goes, so goes a lot of the the conversation of the trend lines going into 2028. So so sorry to give you a twofold answer to your one part question, but but that's sort of where my head is. Appreciate those thought. Margot, how about you? And feel free to divide it into two as well. Okay. Well, I think my main takeaway is that the election really didn't change the overall direction of Muni credit. But I think it did make issuer selection even more important, and that's good news for us because we have one of the largest and longest tenured research teams specifically dedicated to municipals in the industry. And so this is where we really thrive, where there's a lot of issuer differentiation and where there's an opportunity credit selection to really translate into better investment performance. And so I think I would just tell investors that, you know, the broad foundation for munis remain solid. Most state and local governments entered the election with healthy reserves, and we're not really seeing that change. But where we are seeing changes is sort of at the margin and and really more local, impacts. And so like I said in Florida, you can see one policy really playing out differently across, different municipalities, and we can sort of extrapolate that to the whole country. So I think it's an exciting time to be a muni analyst and a muni investor and to really have the opportunity to sort of navigate not only the headlines, but really below, and beyond the headlines and digging in and understanding, how these changes and policy changes and tax reforms will impact muni credit and where there's opportunity to to invest in the market. That's great. Jim Johnson? Yeah. I'm not sure that exciting and always kinda run together, but I agree, Margot. At the end of the day, this is a really interesting time to be thinking about that. If I start to distill it down to one thing and have a point of view on it. I think from our standpoint, when you think about planning, queue up those wealth transfer and estate planning dialogues with your clients. And part of the reason is that at the end of the day, while we don't expect major tax policy moves and revenue changes over the course of the next two years, we are gonna start to see conversations queue themselves up. And certainly, when it comes to a tax that applies to the 1%, of individuals, when you combine that with thoughts around wealth taxes and the like, it is that time for us to revisit those estate plans. And it's not just taxes. It's all of the other aspects that go into that. For instance, have we made sure that we're accounting for potential challenges within the family, dialogues, certain types of assets being disseminated? This is a great opportunity to queue that conversation up to make the changes if needed and not in a rushed format. Prior to the last presidential election, state planning offices were lined up well into the evening hours trying for that potential to make a tweak to that plan prior to the elections and the results and what might happen. We're not in that state right now, but I do think, Brian, at the end of the day, having that conversation around the state and wealth transition. That includes taxes, includes taxes at the federal level, but don't lose sight of the fact that there are a good number of states that have a state level estate tax as well. Queuing those conversations up, up, revisit... Revisiting plans, making sure that they're still aligned with what those clients want to accomplish. Probably the best opportunity when you think about taxes directly and what the results of these elections provide for us to queue up conversations with clients. My thoughts, anyways. Well, I'll speak for myself, but hopefully everyone on the call agrees. Jim, Jim, Margot, you have left me heading into the weekend with a much richer understanding of the election results, but also one that's a little bit more cooler, calmer collected, so we can, relax after what was a chaotic week for everyone. And thank you, for every... Our audience as well for joining us today. I hope we were able to provide you some useful perspective. If you have any questions about topics that we did not cover, there is a q and a feature on the, webinar module, or you can reach out to your Nuveen, LLC relationship manager, and we'll be sure to follow-up with each of you individually. Now please do take a moment to read the important disclosures on the screen. And that concludes today's call. Thank you, everyone.